Alison Ralph 0:02

Welcome to The Unsettled Garden, a podcast about the politics of gardening in Canada. I'm Alison Ralph, a writer and gardener living on the Treaty Lands and Territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit. Today we're talking with Jacqueline L. Scott, a PhD candidate at the University of Toronto, a writer, and an adventurer. Her research is at the crossroads of race, outdoor recreation, and environmentalism. Jacqueline, welcome.

Jacqueline Scott 0:25

Thank you. I'm happy to be on the show, on the podcast.

Alison Ralph 0:30

Thank you so much. You have kayaked in Algonquin Park cycled the Niagara River recreational trail, and you've hiked Hadrian's Wall in the north of England. What is it that draws you outside and on these grand adventures?

Jacqueline Scott 0:45

Outside is where I am happiest. It's where I feel most alive when I'm in nature. And because I have way too much energy than is sensible. I have to find ways of getting rid of that energy, and also to get out of my head. And it's play. It's fun. And when I'm doing those activities, it's also a search for the black history that's around me and black history in the countryside in the rural areas.

Alison Ralph 1:15

Can you tell me more about that? Because I know you've done a lot of sort of research and exploration around the black history in this area, but kind of in a variety of areas as well.

Jacqueline Scott 1:24

Yeah, it's partly because of how I grew up. I grew up in rural England, deep in the Essex countryside. And so, from my bedroom window, you saw the farm fields filled with wheat and barley. Up the road was the farm and you learned very quickly that do not try and pet the bull. It's a really bad idea. So always living in the countryside, and always being aware that, oh, there's only two black kids in the countryside in the little village. And that's me and my sister. And so, there was this hyper visibility that our parents never worried about where we were because of course, they well knew exactly where we were, because everybody else did. So that hyper visibility, and also the sense of constantly being told that black people live in cities, not in the countryside. And so here was I in the countryside, trying to make sense of my experience. And that's what still drives me. That sense of the history is there. But of course, you have to dig to find it. And the way that I do that is by making it fun. So, it's the bike rides, it’s the canoeing, it's the kayaking, it's the snowshoeing, it's, as long as it's outdoors, it's my happy place. It's my safe space.

Alison Ralph 2:48

That's amazing. You're already far more, I think, adventurous for sure than I. So how has your experience of the outdoors, you know, shifted during the pandemic?

Jacqueline Scott 3:02

I have always enjoyed the outdoors. And in the pandemic, it became my life savior, just like many, many people. You know, living in the city, we tend to think of nature as over there and far away. And because the usual things were not accessible, including traveling long distances, I think it encouraged people to look at the nearby nature, the nature that's literally on your doorstep. And so for many people, the pandemic, I guess the only good thing, if that's a phrase, one of the outcomes of it was people rediscovering nature. And that has had a massive impact on the Black community in Toronto, and the racialized communities.

Because prior to the pandemic, you saw very few of us in the wonderful ravines that are in the city. But the pandemic encouraged all of us to go outside. And so suddenly, you're in the ravines and you're seeing people of color everywhere. And it was absolutely fascinating, and so empowering that, you know, you weren't the only one traipsing through the ravine.

And I think for many in the environmentalism sector, it is also presented them with a challenge. And so I'm hearing lots of comments around "Oh, there's a capacity problem, because so many people are using the ravines and they weren't designed for that number." And there's a legitimate concern around that. But I also think it's a coded conversation around race without mentioning race, because the "too many people" tend to be people who look like me.

Alison Ralph 4:44

Okay. So when those coded conversations are happening, like because it's not the only one, there's lots of them. How do you identify them and sort of how do you respond?

Jacqueline Scott 4:59

Oh, it's the feeling that your racial radar is always on. Yeah, it's a comment about too many people, you kind of people, all of those, and it's like, okay, here we go again.

Alison Ralph 5:15

So you wrote a piece about balconies as a marker of inequality. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jacqueline Scott 5:25

Yes, I live in Regent Park. And one of the things I look at, again, for the pandemic, is people need outdoor spaces, right. And what happens if you live in an apartment and it doesn't have an a balcony. And then when you walk around the area, it became fairly obvious that it was social housing that didn't have balconies, and because of the pandemic, and our need to reconnect to nature, for many people, it's like, okay, so if you, you have no outdoor space. Whereas if you have a balcony, in the height of the pandemic, you can sit on the balcony.

And it also becomes an issue when I think in terms of gardening, like so many, not just gardening, the greening of the city. So many of the initiatives to green the city consists of planting trees. But that's based on the assumption that you actually have a yard in which to plant the tree. So what happens when you live in an apartment. And we already know from research that the richer the area, the more trees it has, the more green it is, and the whiter it is. The poorer the area, the fewer trees it has, and the Blacker and Browner the area. So you can look at trees as also another marker of inequality. If you look at the distribution of trees in the city, and map those with race and income, then it's pretty much if you're white, you're alright, because you got tons of trees. If you're Black or Brown, well, tough luck—there are not a lot of trees in your area.

And that becomes an issue when you think in terms of the climate crisis. And if you think in terms of how hot the cities are, you know, trees provide shade, they clean the air, they're an excuse for people to go hang out under the tree or for children to play. But if you live in an area where there are few trees, then a lot of those things are not available to you. And so for me, when I look at all those initiatives about planting a tree, well, how exactly is that going to benefit people who live in apartments who tend to be mostly Black and Brown, and increasingly Indigenous in the city?

Alison Ralph 7:44

Yeah. So, I guess that that really starts to get at who gets to garden and who doesn't.

Jacqueline Scott 7:50

Yes, yeah, very much so. And in my area, if you walk up to Cabbagetown, and Rosedale tons and tons of absolutely stunning gardens. Many of them have won awards, or even just the ordinary gardens, because it's filled with houses. Now living in Regent Park, it's filled with condos. So if I want to garden, my garden is what I can grow on my balcony. Or in Regent Park the gardens that people have access to are the community gardens —community gardens at the side of the church, at the side of the social housing projects, at the side of many of the other social service agencies. For a lot of people in Regent Park, those are the only gardens that they have access to. And those gardens, many of them are so carefully tended. People are growing vegetables, they're they're growing herbs, they’re growing peppers, and just the care. And it's like, wow, you know, what would happen if these people had much more space in which to grow things?

Alison Ralph 8:58

So, how do we change that? How do we get more space? Is that even an option? Especially in a place like Toronto, you know, in the city center, where, you know, things are, are so concrete and built up?

Jacqueline Scott 9:11

Yes, it is an option because when I look at the many large parks in Toronto, well, first, let's look at it in two ways. If you look at the waiting lists for allotments in Toronto, the waiting list is quite long. But if you look at who, who gets the allotments, then in Toronto, it's mostly white people. If you look at the community gardens, well, who gets the community gardens, it's mostly Black and Brown people. And then when you look at the larger parks, such as, for example, Allen Gardens, beautiful space, but where is the Indigenous garden there? And so green spaces are available in the city, but it's about who has access to them. And also about the kinds of plants that are grown in them.

Alison Ralph 10:03

Yeah. Oh, it's interesting that you say that because—and I know that this is not a unique story—but you know, recently there was a story that came up about a park that had planted some new plants for, you know, for beautification, and they were identified as invasive species, and then sort of, you know, on the bed adjacent to it, it was filled with pollinator plants, intending to, of course, encourage pollinator activity, but sort of that juxtaposition of like, we want to do that and we want to apparently plant invasive species.

Jacqueline Scott 10:37

Well, the thing that strikes me is that when you think of spring in Toronto, the plants that most of us think of are the tulips and daffodils, right? And I plant those too, I think they're gorgeous. But tulips and daffodils are not native to Canada. Those are the plants that came over with the settlers. But what I'm interested in is how we normalize that spring is tulips and daffodils. Because it's almost like in the very things that we think of as spring plants, coded in them, it's actually a whole history about settlers and about colonialism. But because the plants are presented as "Oh, it's a tulip and daffodil, it's a neutral, what's the problem?" And I'm interested in what's underneath a lot of the everyday common things. And so when I think of the city parks, it's like, okay, of course plant your tulips and daffodils. But can you also plant some native spring plants? So we actually know what native plants look like in the city?

Alison Ralph 11:46

Yeah, now you're now you're talking my language. I'm an avid native plant gardener, so I'm very excited about that prospect. You've talked about the challenge of honeybee pollinator gardens. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jacqueline Scott 12:02

Yeah, I love honey, a bit too much. I'd always assume that well, bees make honey and honey bees, you find them everywhere. So I was really surprised, I was down some rabbit hole reading something and it talked about the "White Man's Flies." I thought what honey bees? And then further down the rabbit hole to find out that honeybees are not native to Canada. And again, they came over with the settlers. And so there's something like 4000 different variety of native bees in Canada and not one of them make honey and the honeybees are also pushing out some of the native bees. So it's a sense of if we plant pollinator gardens, if we can use native plants, it gives the native bees a chance. I mean, the honeybees will also use them, but it's actually trying to do something that will support your native bee population. And so many pollinator gardens, I think they're beginning to address that issue. But again, when people think of honey bee it's it's seen as a neutral.

Alison Ralph 13:12

Yeah. Yeah,

Jacqueline Scott 13:14

It's a little bit like I was thinking of getting some earthworm to do some composting. Again living in an apartment, I have a balcony and it's like okay, those worm composters that you can get online. So I thought, okay, I'm not too keen on earthworms. But it's a small thing to again, trying to address the climate crisis. And also instead of feeling miserable that oh my god, everything is going to south, it's like do something. And so again, I was all set to get the earthworms and the composter until—I volunteer as a Land Steward—and we got talking about earthworms. And I was completely floored to find out that earthworms are not native to Canada.

Alison Ralph 14:02

Really? Oh, I had not heard that.

Jacqueline Scott 14:05

It's was like what? That if you look at the distribution of earthworms, you'll find they're mostly in the city, and earthworms also came over with the settlers. Because the Canadian forest, they have their own methods, their own system of returning the nutrients to the soil. And it does not involve earthworms. And earthworms are changing the basic ecology of how the soil does it stuff and how does it stuff. But again, though, for me, it's looking at the everyday world and trying to figure out what are the relationship to things? And so the earthworm just like, wow, I didn't see that one.

Alison Ralph 14:48

No, no, I always assumed—I guess you know what they say about making assumptions—But I always assumed it was a marker of a healthy ecosystem.

Jacqueline Scott 14:59

Ya, that's what I thought too and it is—in Europe!

Alison Ralph 15:03

but not here.

Jacqueline Scott 15:04

But not in the Americas. And it's like, okay. And then when you look at the type of trees that are planted in the city, and again to me a tree is a tree. I like trees. Yeah. But when you start looking at, okay, the Dutch elm disease got rid of the elms. And then you walk around the city using the little tree guide that the, where I volunteer as a Land Steward, they gave me the tree guide, so to help identify trees, and then you walk around the city seeing a lot of trees, and you're looking at the list that is like, hey, wait a minute. Why aren't there a lot of native trees here?

Alison Ralph 15:42

Right? Oh, yes.

Jacqueline Scott 15:45

Then you look at things like the horse chestnut trees. And it's like in Toronto that were planted when run one of the Royal offspring was having some kind of celebration, including a trip to Canada. So we planted hundreds of them in celebration of that. Yeah, the trees are beautiful. But again, it's looking at how settler colonialism is encoded in that. And again, from the Land Stewarding, I like the weeping willow trees. A lot of them are planted in the city parks, especially those that have a pond, or the ones that are close to water on the lake shore. And again, I just assumed, well, of course they native right. Ya, but they're not! Yeah, the weeping willow trees, again, came over with the settlers. And but I guess the point I'm making is that so many that a tree is not just simply a tree, every tree has a story to tell. And it's looking at in the city, so many of the trees that are planted here are not native trees. Yeah. And it's questioning well, why are we planting trees from other areas? And an ecologist, I'm sure will give you an absolutely fantastic answer as to why they do that. But I'm much more interested in how those decisions are shaped by race and colonialism. I guess, in academic jargon it’s the ecological colonialism. Yeah. When we think of colonialism, it can be this abstract thing that's somewhere. But when you can bring it down to say, well, if we're talking about tulips, why are we planting tulips and daffodils here? If we're planting trees in the city, what kind of decisions are we making about which trees to plant?

Alison Ralph 17:39

Yeah, like, why are we planting so many Norway Maples?

Jacqueline Scott 17:42

Yes. Yeah. And as the climate crisis does its thing it's like we know that native species are resilient. But it's about when I buy plants because I live in an apartment. It's on the sixth floor. And the wind is a killer for plants. Never mind the sun, but the wind. So I've learned—buy the cheapest possible plants you can find, because it doesn't matter what you plant. They're only for the season. So from that very few things would survive.

So when I go to the plant store, or the grocery store, or wherever it is selling plants cheap, it's really hard to find native plants, because I've tried. Whereas the ones you can buy for— well, I was gonna say a dollar, nothing is a dollar these days. But the summer plants that you can buy, they're lovely garden plants, but it puts one in a really hard position that you're trying to plant native plants, but they're not readily available. Or if they're available, they're not cheap enough for the season, because you know, things are gonna die on your balcony.

Alison Ralph 18:55

Yeah, yeah. All those additional considerations. Yeah. So what are some of the questions that we need to be asking? I mean, maybe our local leaders, our neighbours, ourselves, about how we can make the outdoors and gardens in particular, more welcoming places for Black and Brown people in particular?

Jacqueline Scott 19:16

When I look at the large city parks, such as Island Gardens, or, of course, I'm gonna forget the names of the ones that I spend way too much time in. It's around those spaces are absolutely beautiful. So what can we do to plant more native plants in those spaces? When I think of High Park, there's an Indigenous garden there. How can we give support so that Indigenous gardens become a standard feature of every city garden? That it doesn't have to be the long projected fight to actually get them.

And when I think of garden aesthetics, so many gardens still have the grass, patches of grass, the mowed lawn. Especially in suburbia—lawn is the it's iconic suburban garden image, isn't it? But once again, it's like, that's a particular aesthetic of what a garden is supposed to look like. And it's very much a white aesthetic. And it's around how do we move away from that to, one, plant things that are way more interesting to look at, that are better for the birds, that are better for the butterflies? And also dismantle the idea that a garden is supposed to look one way, and one way only. And if it doesn't look like that, then there's something wrong, or you're not a good gardener, or you don't care about gardening.

Alison Ralph 20:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jacqueline Scott 20:47

And likewise, it's why do we only plant flowers and gardens in front yards? Why aren't we planting fruits and vegetables? But that's a whole other debate.

Alison Ralph 20:58

But a good one, especially now, as you know, the inflation is increasing. And you know, all kinds of things are happening in our society economically, that that make growing your own food a much more appealing prospect.

Jacqueline Scott 21:11

Yeah. And that becomes part of the white aesthetics that the front yard is for flowers only. And in the backyard is where you do the actual fruits and vegetables. And it's about interrogating that aesthetic, and saying, Well, why can't we plant cabbages in the front yard? Yeah. Why can't we plant bok choy? Or instead of grass, can we not plant strawberries? Or the native thyme as a cover? And again, because I'm interested in birding, it's like those provide better food, better cover for the birds, so you have way more wildlife. And when you have a varied ecosystem, it's a lot healthier all round.

Alison Ralph 21:53

Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, when I ripped up my lawns and put in native plants, I was just really amazed at the creatures that started to appear in my garden. It was it, it was lovely. You know, of course, the monarchs but you know, so many other bird species started to stop by and yeah, so I, I hear you on that for sure.

Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. This has been really wonderful. I'm going to take this conversation and do a lot more thinking and ask myself some of those questions. And yeah, so thank you so much for being here today.

Jacqueline Scott 22:32

Oh, it's a pleasure.

Alison Ralph 22:33

That's it for The Unsettled Garden this week. I'm Alison Ralph. For more information about Jacqueline Scott. You can find her at blackoutdoors.wordpress.com. This show is produced by Lead Podcasting. And if you like what you heard, be sure to follow the show on your favourite podcast player. And if you're looking for me, I'll be in the garden.